I used a full can of evap cleaner. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. Yes, the 50F diff (160-110F) on the condenser was at idle, and ambient was about 90F. This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. absorb by the evaporator to insure all liquid refrigerant entering the evaporator. Biggest you can fit in there is best. Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. Get to the point where I can walk without crutches2. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. R134a Expansion valve different from R12? - Automotive Air Conditioning That is a good thing. Accessories Pumps, Cooling Towers, Evap Condensers, etc, Components Valves, Motors, Condensers, Evaporators, etc, Duct Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Piping Systems Design, Installation & Practice, Control System Design, Installation & Practice, Pro's Forum: National Electrical Code (NEC), Pro's Forum: Calculations & Electrical Theory, Pro's Forum: Electrical Business & Marketing. However, R12 refrigerants are still used as fire retardants in aircraft and submarines. Please enter a password for your user account. One thing at a time here, and slowly, the knee is not up to jumping around like I used to at the moment. The value of carbon dioxide is 1. #13. When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. Thread starter goldNSX; Start date 1 August 2009; Tagged . This can be very very expensive. Recovery & flushing is the only way out of an oil overcharge in your vehicle.B. Bohica, I appreciate your help with this. So if the TXV is OK, and the too much oil situation is not a big problem, then I wonder why the compressor is switching off after about 15 minutes of cooling? R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. R134a was selected as a replacement refrigerant for R12 because R12 contains chlorine and has a major effect to ozone layer depletion. This implies that the discharge pressure of the compressor should be moderate so it can produce the refrigerants condensation in the condenser at the atmospheric temperature. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve The larger fitting goes on the discharge port and the smaller fitting goes on the suction line or compressor inlet / suction port. By noting the ambient temperature you can look up what the preferred high side pressure should be. The OEM spec is 2300 rpm @ 12.6v (engine stopped fully charged battery). Mine was 61, so the system is not working as it is supposed to. The larger line at the expansion valve is the suction line. I'm doing one thing at a time so I know what the cause was. However, you can convert R12 to R134a by yourself, save money and keep all the tools purchased. #19. This may be the source of your oil confusion. I'm also thinking maybe I should go to R134 - it might work better with the right amount of oil and the correct expansion valve. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. The condenser water inlet temperature and flow rate are controlled with the use of a . The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. So that indicates it is cooling well there doesn't it? Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. If liquid refrigerant were to exit the evaporator. Compatible with multiple applications: The major reason for the introduction of R134a was to replace R12, so it functions perfectly in the same range of applications like rotary, screw, and centrifugal compressors for air conditioning and refrigeration. In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. MB has specfic test parameters for performance, but you can always test at max load - doors open fan on highest speed.The oil overcharge looks like a parabolic curve. So you could likely put off buying those new hoses just a bit longer if you wanted. However, R134a is better than R12. You do not need to replace every o-ring in the system, but if you happen to open a connection that has an o-ring you should replace the old o-ring with one that is compatible with R134a and lubricate the o-ring with ac oil. But with an R4, better too much than too little.3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12.4) The airflow across the condensor is crucial to good performance. By: james smith underoath; Comments: 0 . It's actually a reaction with chlorine in the mineral oil that may have been absorbed and leftover from the old R-12. If your compressor requires replacement or its seals and o-rings need to be replaced due to leakage, it would be wise at this time to either obtain a compressor that has o-rings and seals that are compatible with R134a or have your unit re-manufactured with compatible components. However, theyre still used in older plants, systems, and the automotive industry. What is needed? I know this is bad, etc, and deposits on the metal can act as insulators. Attach the R134a charge port adaptors, there are two types.. one of which you need to remove the old R12 valve cores. Blows pretty hard on full. R-12 vs R-134a Hose - Pelican Parts Forums Thanks again. AFAIK, there is no clutch on the engine fan on the 240D. They should be able to keep you comfortable on a long trip, but don't expect vent frost in 3 minutes or lesss.2) Too much oil can reduce cooling capacity, and the effect is not linear. Yep, definately not a meat locker. If you find any of these conditions you will want to liquid flush (with dedicated AC flush solution) all the lines, condensers, evaporator (remove the expansion valve) before you proceed further. R134a requires a different oil. Is the information not applicable to the old Pantera system? Figure 2 shows the different phases and pressures the refrigerant . PDF COMPARISON OF Rl34a AND R12 REFRIGERANTS IN A VAPOUR - AIVC There are three different refrigerants officially sanctioned by the EPA for automotive usage: r-12, r-. Heres some important advice Whenever you notice your R12 refrigerant is leaking, turn off all flames and open the doors so it can escape to the open atmosphere. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. If not, you just don't know unless a test is performed. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Hi pdrayton- If you can remember the oil capacity that you found in all your research and post that, then bohica and others can have a better idea if you have too much; see if you can find that info! Besides R134a there are some other refrigerants that are approved to replace R12 and there is a long list of refrigerants that are not approved. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve The car never overheats, if that has any import. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. But R22 is almost equally damaging. What was the ambient when you took that reading?Jumpering the aux fan is a common thing here in the desert. Inasmuch as R134a has a global warming potential thats over 1000 times more threatening than carbon dioxide, its better than R12. R-12 is no longer used or produced in many countries and remaining quantities have skyrocketed in price. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. R134a vs. R12 - Griffiths A lower GWP alternative to R-134a had to be found and thus we have the new 1234yf. Since 2010, all home AC systems manufactured use a refrigerant like R134a that has zero ozone depletion potential (ODP). Do I leave the orignal condensor in, etc?Thanks. Interestingly, theres one oil type that works perfectly with both types of refrigerants. Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. Osuagwu Solomon is a certified mechanic with over a decade of experience in the mechanic garage, and he has over five years of experience in the writing industry. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. The reason is that the vehicles, for instance, manufactured currently configure the engine for R1234yf refrigerant, making no provision for replacement. The higher the ambient temperature the higher the high side pressure. A/C receiver difference between R12 and R134a? | NSX Prime It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. R134a vs R12 - What is the Differences? - Rx Mechanic BTW, I use a stick thermo in the vents and the laser on the condenser. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. Post photos, respond to polls and access other special features. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. gital control scheme. Are r12 and r134 fittings different? 42 (at best) w/ 134A in 2000 isuzu trooper. Also called the orifice tube. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. 4.R404A R134a increased mass transfer resistance to reduce the transmission chamber heat coefficient, while R507 heat transfer coefficient is higher than R404A. Effects of alternative refrigerants on the ejector dimensions for The Wikipedia explanation for expansions valves cited in Frank's thread says that the gas inside the bulb in the metering valve is the same as the refrigerant in the system. Bad Car A/C Expansion Valve Symptoms. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve Helical and Serpentine coils. Rxmechanic.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for website owners to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Until 1995, most cars with air conditioning used R-12 Freon refrigerant which has shown to have an environmental impact. We mention using ester type refrigerant oil. Depending on which circuit diagram fits your car (cough, no vin list exists) you have either one or two switches controlling the aux fan. Statisicaly your friend was lucky. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. In a comparison between R12 vs R134a vs R1234yf, R1234yf will pass as the best refrigerant. A vacuum pump, a refrigerant recover system, quality service gauge set with both low and high side gagues, and much more besides the lessons to learn what to do and what not to do. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. Also, R134a cylinders are light-blue in color. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. 37 in 2005 tacoma, R134A. Compressor. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). Expansion Valve. The difference between the two is about 10,000 btu/h. The typical scenario here is when the car owner buys an inexpensive retro-fit kit from the local auto parts store. and feeds it through an expansion valve. CR4P). But some types of PAG do not mix well with the old residual R12 mineral oil left in the system components whereas ester does mix very well. I have the original (R12) style expansion valve in the Maverick AC system. The butylcellusolve or the citrus solvent will dissolve the carcass in a few minutes. Mark Baker R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. #4. If your cars system has a sufficient condenser design and air flow to expel the greater amount of heat extracted by R134a, then by all means you should convert over when the time comes. SO here's my question. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? I think the way to go here is1. On this website we are addressing only R134a and not other suggested drop in replacements. Thanks so much Bohica - you've save me many more hours of fruitless speculation. Next I'll jumper the aux fan. You do not want to exceed the systems high side recommendations. George Bray on Wed August 31, 2005 5:03 PM I believe the optimum supercool setting will vary slightly between an expansion valve for an R12, as compared to R134a, system. PDF Experimental analysis of Thermostatic expansion valve, Constant Expansion Valve for R134a? | Team Chevelle It runs between the condenser outlet, receiver/drier unit and expansion valve at the firewall. We recently created this blog site to enable us to share our knowledge with other automotive mechanics and car owners. Components Coils, Heaters, Motors, etc. El maig de 2016, un grup damics van crear un lloc web deOne Piece amb lobjectiu doferir la srie doblada en catal de forma gratuta i crear una comunitat que inclogus informaci, notcies i ms. "Howdy, Folks!" This kit comes complete with Expansion valve, o-ring kit, and 1ft. _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. According to Wikipedia, There is such a thing as "r132a" (1,1-Dichloro-2,2-Difluoroethane), however there is no indication of it being a commercially produced refrigerant. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. So to keep things simple and to avoid controversy and politics we have R134a. You may need to adjust the valve in a bit to get desired superheat. Yes it will work with either Refrigerant! That's a lot isn't it? Kommentare . The oil is spread all over your system when it is at rest. A/C R12 to R134a Conversion Success | IH8MUD Forum Its duty is to convert toxic gasses produced by the engine into A brake cleaner is a powerful solvent for cleaning dirt from the brakes and other car components. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. I found that in the..Maxposition on the control it will have the compressor running all the time. The problem with using an approved alternative refrigerants other than R134a is that when the system is serviced it requires certain types of fittings, labels and dedicated equipment. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. Swapping the components isnt a herculean task, but recharging the AC is a challenge. R134a vs R12 refrigerant? The best oil that runs well with R134a is PAG oil or Polyalkylene Glycol. Before R12 was replaced with R134a in 1995, it was mostly used in trucks and cars. R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. However, it was found to be a very bad gas for the environment. How is the vent airflow?I would jumper the aux fan & check the performance. In practice this means that the car can overheat and the aux fan will stay off! R 134A is designed for the high demands of an automobile AC and cannot be used on refrigerators due to pressure differences. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? Also, would a genuine R12 TXV be better, or is it too marginal to worry about?I think I should do the FSM test for performance - they have a graph with ambient temp and a/c temp. Putting R12 into a R134 vehicle | AnandTech Forums: Technology A/C Expansion Valve Replacement Cost. Therefore, the R12 refrigerant is illegal, and emitting it is illegal. I think so. Can I use the one for the R-12? Since there is only about a 10% difference between R-12 and R-134a, the expansion valve being self-compensating really doesn't make that much difference. had writing on the side that said R134a. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? Autor de l'entrada Per ; Data de l'entrada calexico west port of entry hours; 12 month libor rate 2021 a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve A discussion of the relationship between valve capacities and superheat set-tings can be found in Bulletin 10-9. This works when the R12 charge specification is listed in pounds. R12 Expansion Valve with R134A charge? - Maverick What effect would it have on performance, if any? A/C systems designed to use R-12 will cool best when charged with R-12 refrigerant. Ask Our Pros-Owner Assistance - NO DIY advice will be given. James10952001. Vent temperatures slowly go down to around 50F with hi speed driving. This leads me to labor over every small decision. The compressors used by refrigeration plants to compress gas require oil to help lubricate its moving parts. R134a systems operate at higher discharge-side pressures than R12, which can cause compressor seals to leak. A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues.You could improve the cooling capacity by replacing the condensor with a high effeciency parallel flow unit. These cheap kits usually have a few cans of R134a (either 12 ounce or 16 ounce), maybe an extra can of refrigerant oil, a few generic R134a charge port adapters and maybe some o-rings. Minor adjustments to the expansion valve and other controls may be necessary for some plans. The substitute that we used for R-12 was the new HFC called R-134a. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. Just because the radiator does not boil people assume that the cooling system is ok. The problem with not being an expert is that you don't know what is important and what's not. At the moment, the ac is acting up - will work fine for about 15 minutes and then slowly the vent temperatures rise until the compressor switches off. It is a known suspect that lets heat into the heat exchanger/core even when off because the mono-valve is on the exit side of the heater core. compressor, condenser, evaporator and expansion valve are specifically designed for use with R134a. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve If you have 10 ounces of oil in the system, that is contributing to the poor performance as well. Whenever its exposed to the environment, it changes to a gas. The Main change in the system is the expansion valve. Hot coolant migrates up through the core by convection (is that the word? There is NO reason to retrofit a vehicle to R-134a as long as the R-12 system is cooling properly and contains a normal charge of refrigerant. hardly noticable. Tech Talk - Differences between R-1234yf and R-134a - FJC Inc Environmental Impact: When R134a escapes into the atmosphere, it contributes to global warming. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. A comparison between R12 vs. R134a temperature will show that R12 has a higher temperature than R134a. Why wait for 200f on the engine coolant to start the fan? Read on for more information about using automotive r134a in a refrigerator and vice versa. . You should keep in mind that recharging your air conditioner improperly could result in more serious damage. Hence, the effect of R12 on global warming is up to 10,000 times higher than carbon dioxide.
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